The author of the book A Young Writer’s World: Creating Early Childhood Classrooms Where Authors Abound joins Heather to discuss emerging writing in the early years.

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Episode Transcript

Heather  00:54

Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of that early childhood nerd. I’m Heather burnt Santi joined today by Rebecca.

McMahon Giles. Did I say it, right? I asked you, then I forgot. So I’m very sorry.

Rebecca is the author of a book called A Young Writers world creating Early Childhood classrooms. Where author is abound that.

I read early summer, I think and we’ve kind of been talking about you coming on and trying to get it scheduled.

For a while now, so welcome.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  01:26

Thank you. It’s nice.

Heather  01:28

Yeah, what would you like folks to know about you before we jump into talking about your book?

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  01:35

Um, let’s see. I guess I’m early childhood educator at heart and that is my passion actually working with young children.

And I am currently at the University where I work with training future teachers to work with young children, but get back into the classroom, usually through teacher training grants or even

just volunteering as much as possible to have that time with three, four and five years. They teach you so much.

Heather  02:07

Yeah. Yeah. I just I just moved from a job where I was more directly with children in the mornings.

And now I’m just at the college by myself with grownups and usually those grown-ups are on a screen right now and I miss it so much.

I can’t wait to be able to find ways to get back in with children. So before we jump in with a starting quote, I want to thank you for the book.

I feel like literacy of course, is always a topic and people always want to talk about reading.

And teaching reading, but there really aren’t that many books out there that I’ve seen that really focus on the piece of helping children become writers.

So, so I’m excited. I think I told you, I’m going to try and use it in a literacy class. I’m teaching later this semester. I’m excited about it.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  02:52

I do think that we as parents and teachers and just kind of a society in general recognize the importance of teaching reading and teaching, our children a love for reading And

we have gotten the message through. I think that we need to begin early and often and very casually and just making it a part of our daily routine, the exposure to

books and reading but we haven’t done such a good job with getting that message to the writing but it’s equally important. It’s just not emphasized

Heather  03:29

right?

I mean other than like name writing we tend to really really want to see that happen.

Happen in practice that whether we’re parents or teachers with young children, but with the depths that you go to, in the book, we sometimes, oh, and don’t forget to,

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  03:45

and the common misconception that occurs between the terms writing and handwriting. Yes. Definitely writing is definitely not penmanship.

Yeah, writing in penmanship are synonymous and you’re talking about legibility and flew it. See. And those criteria relate to putting marks on paper, but when you’re talking about writing, it’s all

about seven self-expression and emphasis is on communication regardless of the form that, that might take.

Heather  04:21

Yeah. Yeah, and that’s you say that very early in the book. It’s not a manual on teaching handwriting.

It’s it’s a guide to help nurture young children’s writing as a means of communication. And I love that that that discussion of the ultimate Goal, right early in the book because

when I said there isn’t a lot out there about writing, there are handwriting curriculums there are, you can get. Yeah, but that’s not what you’ve written here.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  04:46

No, and it’s a different focus. And if we think handwriting as functional, functional writing where I want to focus on more expressive writing, so more than just being able to write

your name, but being able To really communicate your thoughts and ideas. And that’s why I used the word author.

Repeatedly helping children become authors as opposed to just writers helping them realize that they have something worth saying in a more permanent form than orally.

It’s worth putting it down on paper and in doing that, it gains some power because it gains some, some permanence and some Vince.

Heather  05:36

And one of the things that that I thought was great, you talked about having a publishing Center in the classroom.

So we all kind of have our writing area, right? Most of us do or we have the pencils and pens and notebooks and paper in the things that are on all

of our regulatory lists and our, our accreditation criteria, but what’s different from between a publishing Center in a Writing Center the way we would traditionally

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  06:04

see it.

Again, it’s just the perspective. And so most of us do not have a reading Center.

We have a classroom library because books are everywhere and they are are counting books in the math Center and there’s nonfiction text in the science.

Discovery Center and reading is a part of everything that we do, but there’s kind of a concentrated focus on reading in the library.

So I want that same emphasis for writing writing, isn’t something that’s done in a little corner.

or a designated space but you right around the room as a part of children’s play and they’re learning in blocks and in science and math, but there can be a designated

space for publishing where if you specifically want to work on your craft as an author or if you need quick access to book making supplies, then there’s a space for that

but writing isn’t Isolated or is it isn’t? It doesn’t happen. Just in that one spot.

Heather  07:13

Yeah, we really we really tried to compartmentalize Children sometimes and we do it. I think because with good intentions like we want to make sure we’re offering something for every piece

of their development, but we forget that it happens in such connected ways. Like it’s when you’re in the block area and you want to make a sign or you want to

write A note to somebody it, when you’re playing in a pretend play, dramatic play area, or you want to tell story about the art that you’ve done those kinds of things.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  07:48

And so I think one of the main goals of the book is to help teachers realize first of all the importance of having writing utensils and writing materials and every aspect

of the classroom and then how to make that happen. So they recognized the necessity that it be available and then just some some tips, some ideas for what types of materials

and storage, and how to rotate them in and out to maintain internal interest and to better relate to the curriculum or the theme of current study.

Heather  08:25

Yeah. I was just teaching one of the classes. I’m teaching this semester is about cognitive curriculum.

And I mean, that’s the name of the class. And we were talking about science last week and we looked at like the School supply catalog section on science and all the

materials you can have about science. And we talked about how you can have. You have all the stuff on the shelves that your budget can buy.

But if you yourself don’t understand how each piece relates to science, it’s not going to be as rich in experience for children.

And would you say the same is kind of true with the writing, you know, you just you just described having materials kind of all over the The room,

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  09:08

definitely.

I think that first and foremost, we have to create learning experiences for our children that are worthy of being written about that.

They have to have a topic of Interest something that they’re excited to share and then we need to have the materials in place and the support system to help them share

that in in writing and again I’m saying Writing. But that writing could be any form of kid writing.

It could be scribbling. It could be random letters. It can be dictation. It can be there or a words that are actually transcribed by an adult and writing and then publishing

is another term that I use differently. I think more than a lot of people and I use it more.

Only for a number of years. I taught the writing process and how we teach writing and we go through the five steps.

And I associate that whole view of prewriting and Drafting and revising and editing and Publishing with Donald Graves and Donald Graves is a personal favorite of mine and he just did

wonderful work in the area and the pedagogy of teaching writing.

But when I tried that with our youngest Learners, it wasn’t, it wasn’t as effective for a number of reasons.

But mainly, because developmentally they’re different. They’re have short attention spans. They they don’t understand time. Well, they lack fine motor skills.

They are egocentric. And so this delayed gratification where you revisit one piece of work. So that The makes more sense to the reader and you do it over and exterior it

over an extended period of time was just more difficult for them. And so they need the end.

They need the final step which is the publishing or the sharing because that’s where the acknowledgement and the recognition comes and it takes that acknowledgement.

It takes the constructive feedback. Back that they get from a reader to provide both the motivation to continue writing as well as increased knowledge about writing and how it works.

And so for me, publishing is any writing, that’s red if it is shared, it is published.

So it doesn’t have to be perfected. It doesn’t have to be revised and edited and eventually we will, we will get there, but it is that Um One Step writing your

first draft writing or writing that is immediately, read that elicits a response that is going to keep them writing and also help them improve as writers.

Heather  12:23

That’s such a good I guess unpacking of How It’s like like everything else when we’re working with children this age.

It’s the process that is, is more. for this age group than the product, some of the time like they’re going to love that product and you’re getting them to the product

quicker by changing your your process there with with about publishing, but it’s really about What did I communicate?

How did it feel for me to communicate that? How did someone else respond to it? When I published it?

Whatever that meant means of public publishing is. I think that really fits what we know about three to five year olds.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  13:05

And if we think about the process that children go through when they acquire oral language and the adult role in that and so when your child comes to you and they

are babbling and we’re so excited.

And we’re so encouraging and we’re so accepting of those initial attempts that don’t look anything like the end result, but that we recognize as a valuable part of the process and

without our reaction, their trial-and-error learning their attempts aren’t going to continue at nearly the same the same rate.

And so that’s kind of the environment. Moment that I would like posture for our Young Writers. Sure,

Heather  13:53

sure, I think about devaluing even unconsciously devaluing scribbling, you know, they’re just they’re going through so much paper and they just put one mark on this.

And then they want another piece of paper. We don’t think that way about their early words

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  14:08

know

Heather  14:09

they’re only using one word and then they just wander off. We don’t complain about that but

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  14:15

and their invented spelling or their first

Heather  14:18

invented spelling.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  14:20

Yes, and writing words the way they sound and it reveals so much that they know about phonics and about sound cymbal relationship, and it is often a teachable moment, but it’s not a corrective moment with with

Heather  14:41

them.

And it’s such a one of the things I love about invented spelling as you get such a glimpse into how they thought about it.

Again. It’s that process for them. It’s such a It’s like a snapshot of their thought process that you can’t get in other areas of development,

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  14:55

and language learning.

I mean oral written Reading Writing. It is risky. And then it’s about, you know, you get an idea about how you think it works and you try it

out and then it’s the feedback. It’s the reaction as to, whether or not, you can continue what you’re doing or you make adjustments.

Heather  15:13

Yeah. Yeah. That’s such a really really good point

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  15:18

solution.

Gives them that opportunity. Tunity to make adjustments and to go on to extend and further their own positive affirming way

Heather  15:29

sure and and might give us a clue about what other kinds of materials we should have around or what other kinds of experiences or or ways.

We can extend. What we see is important to them in this moment and what they’re trying to tell us a story about or communicate to us.

I love the idea of thinking about it as fishing and just the way you’ve described.

I also love that you included a whole chapter called playing with Prince, a lot of the listeners of the show and and myself were Believers in play and Defenders of play.

So I wanted to ask you, you know, why was it so important to devote a whole chapter to it?

And what do you mean when you talk about play in terms of developing Young Writers?

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  16:15

Aye-aye to Good Lovin. Now you children’s play. And that’s one of the things I try to get across to the Future teacher’s.

It’s not an either/or. It’s not play or learn. I mean, playing is how children learn to young children to a large extent.

It’s how they make sense of the world around them.

And so, we need to create Opportunities in there, play where they have exposure to print, where they have relevant meaningful opportunities to use print to communicate, but I don’t think that

that’s always the case, even in classrooms, and I feel like they are fewer now than they were 20 years ago.

Even in classrooms, where they still have. Sinners and they call them Learning Centers, but I think we have Learning Centers for a small period of the day and then we have

a lot of whole group instruction or individual desk work and for three four and five-year-olds, especially I see that Interacting in the environment in intentionally prepared environments as equally or more

important than the direct direct instruction and it’s the intentional preparation that ensures I guess that they’re learning.

And you know, I hear parents or novice teacher say things like um, You know, I have to set the timer and make them leave the block Center because if they stay

in blocks all day, then they’re not ever reading or writing or doing math, and they are, if reading and writing and math intentionally embedded.

Yes.

It doesn’t matter where they choose to play. If everywhere they are playing is providing the same opportunities that they need.

For learning. Yeah, so I guess that’s the point, what’s with the writing and it seems again like we’re doing better with the reading.

And so I just wanted to Advocate strongly that we don’t forget. Hmm, writing needs to be in there as well and the expressive type of writing, not the functional letter formation type of writing.

Heather  19:01

Yeah, I think about and these are more, I guess.

I’m just thinking about like a book, my youngest wrote quote unquote, you know, wrote when, when they were maybe six, six years old, lots, and it was who will be heart

girl’s friend. And it was really, it was like a wordless picture book. It just was this, this Narrative of these two drawings, and she, she glued it all.

They glued it all together to bind it. And I think I have one in my box of childhood stuff from when I was a similar age about a dog.

And you know, glued and it’s sloppy. And but I remembered the pride of having that because books were important to me even when I was little and to Josie when they

were little.

And so to feel like I had created something that was similar, was such a feeling of Pride.

And I remember, I remember those memories came up for me as I was reading parts of the book, the emotion attached to it, I guess.

It’s sort of what makes it.

So powerful, but can make writing so powerful.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  20:15

And I think one of the classes I teach children’s literature and I love to read and especially love to repair those and I tend to put children’s authors on a pedestal

and some more than others and I do have a very profound respect for what they do, but I also want children to realize that it’s not elitist.

I mean, we’re all authors and we may not ever reach the same level of authorship. But anyone with a story to tell can write a book.

And so I think the story that you just shared about your daughter and the sense of self satisfaction and accomplishment that came from sharing her story.

That’s what we Them to experience for me. What’s the the biggest disadvantage to?

The overemphasis, on the functional side and learning how to write is that children? Learn how to write, and they can write and they choose not to.

Yeah, because they don’t like writing and so it’s about that joy. And even if it isn’t personally joyful for all of them, then, at least a recognition that it’s powerful to

be able to write. That it is something that is worthy of their time and effort and doing.

Heather  21:54

Yeah, that’s a great framing because so many, you know, think about children of these age that were talking about and they’re in especially the ones who go to child care, or

go to preschool. It’s not their choice to be there. They’re part of a group. There’s very limited options for power in those settings for them.

And if you think about writing And communicating through writing as a means of offering them some power or an experience of power. I think that’s really wonderful,

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  22:27

and kind of the whole, my whole journey with, with writing and with writing this book even started very long ago.

I was teaching kindergarten and my oldest son who is currently a sophomore in college was four at the time.

So I had a four-year-old and Alterra. Had a one-year-old and just getting out of the house in the morning was an accomplishment and then I would teach kindergarten all day and

I was constantly making myself notes to try and remember everything that needed to be done. And my son asked me for a gray marker.

He was making a picture at home. I was cooking dinner. He needed a grave marker. I didn’t have one.

But I had one in my classroom at school. Got the same set of markers on. Bring it to you.

You can finish your picture tomorrow.

The next day. I didn’t bring the marker because I completely forgot. Yeah, two or three days later. Still didn’t bring the marker.

Heather  23:31

How it works.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  23:32

Yeah, and in the book, there is a photograph of the now twenty-year-old posted note that my son wrote and attached to my keys that said gray marker.

That is how the marker. I got home and that was the beginning of his experience as a note writer and in writing.

And this this just very concrete realization that. If I put it down on paper, I get results.

I’ve said it repeatedly and there was no work, not working, but I’ve heard her note and she couldn’t forget it, and then marker appeared and, and that sticky note stayed with me to my very long journey.

Kind of perfecting My Philosophy on writing with children and sharing that with them.

Heather  24:28

Yeah, and we hear about with reading and and developing that element of literacy letting children. See you read and letting children, see how reading is useful through their daily life through

your daily life and what you’ve just described as kind of the same thing for writing. He’d seen you, you’d been what you call in your book or writing role model for

him with just notes that you Weren’t necessarily intending him to see as modeling maybe, but, but he had learned that that power that way from watching you.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  25:00

Do you know as you said modeling and being a role model is very important. And if we think all the way back to km, horns conditions for language learning, again, whether

it’s oral or written one of them is demonstration. They need to see how it works and what it looks like and more so with writing than reading, it’s not as visible.

I guess. Even if children are That’s right. They’re observing like the back of the notepad that we’re writing on it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, over our shoulder watching us form the words and the sentences on the page. And so anytime we can create those types of experiences with children, particularly and taking dictation, and

I would encourage teacher that teachers and parents any adult if you Alterra. Are going to take dictation if you’re going to serve as a scribe and record what the child is

saying, write in a way that they can see the actual letters and words take shape on paper.

Another learning the left-to-right progression. They might notice that some are bigger than others. And then you just start a discussion about capitalism.

That’s the show. Now, go get your nerd on.

I think these are my words and riches. And I’m saying them stairs to that market. And how does it relate to that person?

That.

It makes them more tune. I guess to the detail of it.

Heather  26:55

Yeah, you mentioned that. Yeah, you mentioned earlier, that one of the developmental considerations we need to take into perspective is that they are in sort of an egocentric stage.

So if we can make that connection between their words and what you’re doing and they sort of have the power now that they’re making you write this stuff down.

I think that is another meaningful element to modeling. No, I hadn’t thought much about whether they see it.

Over my shoulder or from the back of the notepad, you know, as long they saw I was writing and I was talking about what I was writing, but they weren’t actually

seeing that process. A lot of the time. So, We’ll

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  27:36

take place in the same thing. If it’s if it’s been tight, you know, if you’re on a keyboard, but if they’re seeing it as it appears on the screen, I think

and as it takes shape, it just provides them with an additional layer of information and insight.

Heather  27:56

Yeah, we added is the preschool that I was in for the last few years. We, it was a, it was in a speech language hearing department at a college.

So we were asked. And language Clinic doing preschool with graduate students in there. And I brought in, like, three of my husband’s super old laptops, like clunky, ginormous heavy laptops to

put into our dramatic play, and they, they turned it into, I expected them to do, like some office pretending, but they turned it into, like, writing letters home, to Mom and,

and, and talking about their day.

While they were still at the preschool and letting letting Mom know what was happening. And we just, we just don’t know what’s important to them until we start to watch and

listen and see the ways that they use the tools. I get us in the ways that you’re describing and, and you give so many good examples in the book.

The last thing that I want that I was planning to ask about, was the environmental print because my, my Don’t want to say struggle, that’s too strong.

But I think there’s a fine line between environmental print and visual clutter in our classrooms sometimes and we’ve seen some, some studies and things come out about how visual clutter can

be distracting for children. And too many things on the walls as more of a distraction than a benefit.

So when you talk about environmental print, what’s important in your mind

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  29:29

that it’s meaningful and that it serves a purpose. So I was Is teaching in the day where they said labels are good.

And so we went and when everything was no or lunchbox, I mean, anything that wasn’t moving out of words, stuck to it.

And I think that was a little bit of sensory overload. Uh-huh. Um, but if it is providing Direction, so like, you don’t hang a sign that says glue, just to name

the Alterra. Object. But if it is showing them where on the Shelf to return the glue bottle in the art center, after they used it, or maybe directions.

And whether it’s Rebus or words, how to the tape dispenser I think is one that kids struggle with.

So, you know, like tearing the tape off the end. Yeah. And so if there if there are some directions that go next To the tape dispenser, so it’s not just labeling

it as a thing, but it is actually serving a purpose which is helping them use it effectively and at the same time teaching them that prick provides information and it is

it is a source of information for us.

So I think there does need to be a balance the print that we place. In the environment intentionally.

And then I also think that there’s going to be environmental print. That just occurs. Naturally.

I’m thinking back to when I was teaching kindergarten and we did Journal writing and we did General writing every day and there would be one or two topics or anything else

that the children could write about. And I noticed that the girls that set closest to where the lunch box.

Fox were stored started writing about Barbie and their journal and the eye and Barbie had a flower for the dot, over the I and the B and Barbie look like the

script on the Barbie lunch box will wow next to them. And so it was print that they found in the environment that both gave them a topic for writing, but also

served as a model for spelling and for letter for me. You know of that writing. So I do think it serves a very valuable purpose and being there.

I just think that we need to be selective and to be mindful that more. Is it necessarily better?

Yeah, and if we do choose to add it, if we choose to put a label it doesn’t mean it has to stay the entire school year, you know, like maybe some

names on things for the first couple of weeks. But then those can come down and they could be replaced with calendars or schedules, more purposeful print in the environment that does more relating them message than just being there. Yeah.

Heather  32:53

Yeah. And and remembering maybe to that, these are pre readers. So just putting it. There doesn’t really make the connection without us.

Also saying, what it means are using the words or what letting them see us write it and we’re talking about what we’re writing and why we’re putting it up there.

And I think, you talked about that in the book. Of course. You also have to sort of bridge a little bit and offer that scaffolding,

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  33:18

exactly.

Um, if you can, in particular, about a non-native, English speaker, a student that I had in kindergarten, and when we would Journal, right?

And I would encourage him, Him, you know, to do phonetic spelling, or to draw pictures, but he was very intelligent and he was also a little bit on the perfectionist side.

So he knew pictures were not writing.

He knew that scribble wasn’t words. And so he just took to copying classroom rules, any text that he could find in the environment because He wanted real writing.

So although I was very accepting of different forms of writing.

He wasn’t content with anything other than Correct. And so he’s, you know, it was there for him to copy and kind of became a support system for him, and he was

copying things that he could read and then he started making the connection between the words that he could Now read and write and how they sounded, in sight words any kind

of he built from that for him in particular. The environmental print was very important. He was very dependent on that.

Heather  34:49

Yeah. Yeah, we’ve definitely had in our in the preschool, a couple children who were like that they were just looking for ways.

They could find those models because they wanted to copy it down and it was children’s names.

A lot of times. It was the other children’s names that were really relevant and valuable and meaningful to those two boys that I’m thinking of right now.

So we just, you know, we We provided those models and and we didn’t have to do a whole lot more, the materials were there.

And but not everyone was interested. So I wasn’t going to sit everybody down and have this, we’re going to learn how to write, everybody’s name kind of thing.

But but you individualized like we do everywhere else. Take what we’re observing about, a child’s interests and skills, and support it in that way, in whatever way we can.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  35:45

It is very individual, the process may be identical or the same for each child. But the rate at which they move through the various stages or phases of understanding is definitely

influenced by environmental and genetic factors. And I think it is so important that then going back to Camp morning, his conditions that we have this expectation.

That we realize that every child barring some kind of Documented mental or physical situation need every child can and will be successful in learning to read and write as long as

we keep doing the things that we know, they need to be successful and we keep supporting them and we keep in encouraging and modeling and we don’t get panicked that they

are not.

Spelling the words correctly or they’re not punctuating their sentences and that we get into this repetitive drill when trying to speed up the process I guess and I can’t say enough

about their need to learn through Discovery and exploration through trial and error.

Just in an affirming way. It’s those initial experiences with writing.

That are going to help form the attitudes about writing that last into teenage and adult years.

And so if the initial experiences can be positive and affirming, they were setting them on the right path for long-term.

Success. That really think writing more than anything else is what our society uses and many situations and academic and career. Years to judge a person’s intellect or work

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  37:58

and all the college essays. My children are writing right now but a lot of emphasis on whether or not you can communicate environment.

Heather  38:08

Uh-huh. Yeah.

I think I’m going back to you. You know, you just talked about Discovery and exploration. Sin, and things like that.

And I think there are some folks working with young children, who that makes them very uncomfortable.

Because their idea of being a teacher is to be the group leader or the activity leader and you know, there are times when we may step into those roles, but the

majority of what we do is exactly what you described with the block corner, you know, the were with the one little child, the one child who wants to play in the

blocks and the teachers concerned that there’s no math. He’s not going to learn math. There are he’s not gonna learn writing there.

So we need to bring it there and we need to we need to be. You know, you talked about intentionally setting up those those materials and situations and I feel like

that’s what this whole book does is give us that permission but also instruction in how to offer this important stuff, of course, it’s important for children to learn these things and

have these experiences but to do it in a way, that’s not Top down from the teacher all the time.

So so I’m really excited about passing it along to college students that I’m working with. And so I whatever is there anything else you hoped that you would get to say

about the book or about about the work that I haven’t asked.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  39:41

No,

Heather  39:43

there isn’t.

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  39:44

I guess in, in my mind getting my purpose for writing was like, you said to be instructive, but also I hope it’s somewhat motivational.

I think the graphic designers did a great job and with the pictures and with the colors and

Heather  40:05

it is a beautiful book. I’ll just what I know. You’ve got it behind you. But here

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  40:10

we Is the need again in the importance of creating a type of classroom that supports young children, as writers as an author’s and all that they do throughout throughout the day.

And then just some possible suggestions and ideas and much like learning to write itself. It’s trial and error, and some things will work, and some things won’t, and the things that

work great this year. Well, next year, because you have different children.

Heather  40:41

Aaron a whole new group. Yes

Rebecca McMahon-Giles  40:44

about it and learning from each other.

And from there.

Heather  40:48

Yeah. Well, thank you. Again. The book is called a Young Writers world creating Early Childhood classrooms were author, has a bound, it’s published by exchange press and and listeners know what a fan. I am of exchange press so I’m appreciative to them for bringing the book into the world as and to you for doing that too.

And for being on the show.

I think that this is going to be a good conversation for folks to listen to thank you.

Yeah, so thank you, Rebecca. And thank you everybody for listening. Come back again for another episode of that early childhood nerd.

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